(pt. 1)

Bea: Yeah, and then the next scene is them doing this f****** painting on hardwood!

Remmy: [laughs]

Bea: They have their little red mystical paints, and they are just — it's red! Slapping that down on the hardwood.

Remmy: It's seen worse. That floor's seen worse. We know it.

Bea: Are they doing upkeep? They gotta be.

Remmy: We're smack dab in the middle of the library too. I mean, come on.

Bea: You guys need to invest in drop cloths and just paint on the tarps.

Remmy: Hey, Sam's got a whole hunter hub now. He's got plenty of indentured labor if he so chooses.

Bea: You'd think.

Remmy: [laughs]

Bea: Go draw in the dirt. I don't know.

Remmy: He's got a maid service. We've got it. They've got a chore calendar on the refrigerator.

Bea: Spin the chore wheel and it's like, okay, Maggie, it's your turn to do the dishes. She's like, "I had it last week!"

Remmy: [laughs] And and — so they're laying out the summoning circle, and Sam is off —

Bea: [laughs] The least subtle bastard.

Remmy: Oh my God, I know, right? So in the talk right before this with Sam and Dean, Sam was like, "We have to try this. We have to try, so you know what, you're not on board? Get on board." And at this point we're framing Dean's biggest hang-up to be his distrust in Lily.

Bea: Yeah, we've worn off — we've eroded all of his other concerns. Now — okay, if we get you over this one then we've got you into the golden mile.

Remmy: Unsubtle Sam is unsubtle, and he says, "So I got — there's just one more thing we need. I'm gonna go."

Bea: Yeah. "I'm gonna go to the place and grab the thing."

Remmy: Exactly, exactly. And as he's leaving the library, he shoots Dean a look and he looks at Lily like, frickin’ figure yourself out. Let's go.

Bea: Yeah, and I'm like, you're not being subtle. Lily can see you doing this, so Lily's like, “Great, I'm entering the worst counseling session of my life up coming here. Neither one of us are therapists.” [laughs]

Remmy: And also neither one wants to have this talk.

Bea: No!

Remmy: But Dean is the one who calls Lily out.

Bea: Yeah, he extends the olive branch and says, “Well, maybe we got off to a bad start,” and Lily is like, okay. “Yeah, that's enough feelings for now. I accept your apology.”

Remmy: Except Lily's "apology accepted" and Dean's like, but something still not fitting right.

Bea: Yeah. You were Alicia Witt two seasons ago —

Remmy: [laughs]

Bea: — and now you're not, so why are you stopping using your magic? Why are you growing old? Because if you have a reason why you're not using that magic anymore, then why the f*** would we trust you to put some whammy on Jack?

Remmy: Right? Right, right. If this magic is so kosher then why did you stop using it? This is what's not adding up in my brain. If this is safe for Jack then why are you letting yourself die rather than use this magic that you're proposing that we thrust onto Jack? And Lily, it's just — you insensitive f****** bastard.

Bea: Yeah, and well, it's not just what is the loopholes there. If Lily is so afraid of going to Hell then why would she even risk dying? You know, if you have this spell that lets you just keep yourself alive, why would you stop that and risk Hell?

Remmy: Exactly.

Bea: You know, so it's on both sides there. It's either the magic is doing something bad or you have some ulterior motives behind this that you're not telling us.

Remmy: Yeah, and Lily says, "You want my ulterior motives? How about the fact that I — a hundred years ago, I struck out on this revenge mission, where I swore to myself that no matter what it took I would kill Ephram." Oh! Ooh, I remembered!

Bea: Isham.

Remmy: Oh, f***. [laughs]

Bea: [laughs] I'm sorry.

Remmy: [laughs] I was doing a little victory dance.

Bea: I was just gonna say, I hate to cut your victory lap short. [laughs]

Remmy: [laughs] Oh, no, I was so proud of myself. F***.

Bea: It's okay. I'll cut this out. Say Isham really clearly; I'll dub it in.

Remmy: I don't need your charity.

Bea: [laughs]

Remmy: So we [laughs] anyways. So she said, "I swore on everything that I am that I would not stop until I got revenge for the death of my daughter. Isham took my daughter from me, and I knew that even if it took my whole soul, if it took every last part of me, I would kill Isham no matter what. I did kill Isham, except that it didn't burn my whole soul. I still have a sliver of it left — a whisper of my true self. I didn't spend all that I am on revenge, and if my daughter — my beautiful, beautiful young girl — is—” Sorry, I'm getting really into this little monologue going on here.

Bea: [laughs]

Remmy: "If my daughter—" [no,] not if.

Bea: "My daughter May is in Heaven, and if I have a chance of reuniting with her, I have to take it."

Remmy: Yes. Yes, and this is my chance and if I can't — if I do use the magic anymore, then I'm not going to burn my chance to be with my daughter in Heaven.

Bea: Remmy.

Remmy: Yes.

Bea: Start my 20-seconds counter on John feels, for a second, okay.

Remmy: [laughs]

Bea: Okay, tell me when it's ready.

Remmy: Twenty, nineteen... [laughs]

Bea: Okay. So essentially what Lily did was she had a vengeance plot and she threw herself 100% into it, not expecting to come out of it —

Remmy: Twelve, eleven...

Bea: — and so the consequences that — I'm still talking about Lily!

Remmy: [laughs]

Bea: Don't count this yet. I was warning you. So when you throw yourself in 100% and you are expecting certain death, you are expecting annihilation, it leads you to not have to deal with the consequences of your actions. And now — 20-second timer —

Remmy: [laughs]

Bea: — John was also someone — we can see the storyline for him ended in his death, because could you imagine the storyline where he beats Yellow Eyes and then has to deal with the repercussions of raising his kids for 20-odd years in the light that he did, and moving forward into a new way? There is such a different approach to your goals when you don't expect to make it out alive. So here Lily is, she has to change tactics after spending one hundred years on one path and go, "Oh s***. There are consequences to what I did."

Remmy: Exactly.

Bea: And now that vengeance is done, what do I do in the lull of quiet that comes after it?

Remmy: We had a very similar sentiment just three episodes ago with "Nightmare Logic" where Bobby, he threw himself into the war that killed his son, and he never expected to make it out of it alive. And then when he did, he similarly was struggling on what's next. What it — can I live my life from here, when I was operating on this foregone conclusion of what I thought my life would be? So yeah. Yeah.

Bea: Yeah.

Remmy: Lily — it's the same for Lily here. She's like, "I would have given everything to complete my mission, to get revenge for the death of my daughter."

Bea: "And I was planning on giving everything, but the fact that that didn't happen means now I have to have a new plan."

Remmy: So, oh my God, I so hope that you edit out like 80% of the bulls*** I just spouted on Lily.

Bea: [blows raspberry]

Remmy: Because you said it so much better. [laughs]

Bea: Come on!

Remmy: Come on, come on. [laughs] Yes. That is where Lily's coming from here. She is saying that I stopped using my magic not because it was destroying me. I stopped using a magic because it was my only chance at salvation.

Bea: Yeah, because I am not destroyed.

Remmy: Yes. Yes, and so she defiantly glares up at Dean and she says, "Are you happy now? Is that satisfactory to you?"

Bea: Yeah, and the — I mean, the parallels aren't really happening yet, albeit all throughout the episode they are, but the fact that she is sitting here saying, "I have the chance to reunite with my child and I'm going for it. Isn't that the same as what you're doing?" Basically.

Remmy: Right. Right, exactly.

Bea: Like, you are throwing all in on this. You have to trust me when I say I am doing the same thing.

Remmy: Yeah. Yeah, and we have Cas in Heaven.

Bea: Cas is the "Hewwo?"

Remmy: Hello?

Bea: Is anybody thewe?

Remmy: Oh my God. [laughs]

Bea: And there's black puddles all over Heaven. You know it's not good. You don't spring oil leaks in Heaven, okay?

Remmy: Right.

Bea: And then there's a dead angel lying there. It's Zuriel, and Dumah's also there, and she revives as Castiel approaches. She's retching and Cas asks what happened, and she just doesn't know. "It went black," and then when this thing touched her, her vision was gone. She f****** blacked out.

Remmy: Yeah. Yeah, and Cas says, "I have to go find Jack."

Bea: Yeah, "I don't have time to sit here. You're okay, right? Do you need cookie?" And she's like, "No, do not leave me alone."

Remmy: Right, right. I felt so bad for Dumah in this moment. She was like, "What?" Because she — Dumah, I'm — okay. This is the first time that we've seen Dumah this season, so this is our first, "Hi, Dumah!" thoughts of Bea and Remmy.

Bea: The angel of dreams.

Remmy: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. So I like Dumah a lot, and I was feeling for her. When she said, “Don't leave me alone” — basically, can I come with you? — I was like, oh, my heart. She just cares so much and she was — in the last season — she was so concerned about the diminishing number of angels and the fall of Heaven. For her to wake up and see one of her last brothers dead next to her, I was just like, f***.

Bea: Yeah, honestly, and here is another — one of your last living brothers, who has not shown himself to be 100% on your side. He's not in your cause although he understands your plight and can sympathize. She still reaches out to him as being like the touchstone here, for trying to keep comfort.

Remmy: Right.

Bea: You just had this black ominous wave sweep through Heaven and it knocked an angel unconscious and it could happen again at any moment. It's just like, if these are my last moments, I don't want to be alone.

Remmy: Oof. So Cas takes Dumah with him as he's searching for Jack.

Bea: Yeah, they go to Jack's heaven, but he's already left. Naomi shows up now.

Remmy: Naomi! Sorry, dun dun dun is more appropriate than the three exclamation points I have next to Naomi's name here.

Bea: [laughs]

Remmy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Naomi shows up to say Jack's already gone.

Bea: Yes! I love that we got her back too.

Remmy: Yeah. Yeah. That was a pleasant surprise.

Bea: Yes. Yes, his — Jack's angel side knew that this was Heaven, and so Dumah asks what's happening. She's deferring to her leader, looking to see what is going on in Heaven. Naomi says that "it" stormed the gates and it's defeated their defenses, and she reveals that it's the Shadow that rules The Empty.

Remmy: Yeah, and this is a nightmare for Cas, right? He's now confronting the monster of his dreams in Heaven.

Bea: Yeah. And Naomi essentially drops the information here that The Empty has called dibs on Jack and she wants to give him over. They don't have a choice, because if Heaven falls then that 46-odd billion souls are going to be cast to the wind. Here she finally says to Cas, "Help me," and Cas is just like, "F***. No."

Remmy: Yeah. Yeah. "No, I'm going to find Jack."

Bea: Yeah, and then Naomi all of a sudden is overtaken by the Shadow and Cas is like, bailout. Goodbye!

Remmy: [laughs] Hey, to be fair, Naomi does tell him to run.

Bea: Yeah, but still. He has zero hesitation — like, no, we can save you! No, no, no — goodbye! So then back to the bunker.

Remmy: Yes.

Bea: Okay, so Sam is reciting the spellwork. Dean and Lily are running the steps that are part of the spell. Lily's blood is used in the summoning, and then Anubis appears in this plaid suit, this tweed suit, and goes, "Oh, the brothers Winchester. Your files have come across my desk many times."

Remmy: [laughs] And Sam says, "Oh, we've died, but we've never met you."

Bea: Yeah, and so we get another quick glimpse into the way that the show is blending the mythos of Egypt with Christianity here. Essentially, that Death and her reapers do all the face time, but Anubis is the paperwork in the background.

Remmy: Yeah. Yeah. He's just pushing papers. He's sorting those files.

Bea: Yeah, just making sure all the trains are running on time, basically. He cuts to the chase, asking what they want, and they explained the situation with the Lily. He goes, "Well, that's against protocol. But I mean, we're here anyways, so..."

Remmy: I did like him a lot. Let's say — let's take a little break and just say I'm instantly in love with this character.

Bea: Yes. I really dug him too, yeah.

Remmy: Yeah. He was very compelling and affable and just — I don't know. There was a draw to him and like I'm here for it.

Bea: I like comparing him against the thought of his father, you know. Osiris that we saw in season seven was kind of this overdramatic guy, would just pick people at random and be like, "Okay, deal your dirty laundry," and then get — there was a lot of showmanship. There was a lot of performance that was going on with the judgments being passed there. Where here, we have Anubis and he's: "No, I sit in my office and it's quiet time."

Remmy: I mean, do you want me to get into — okay 20 seconds of thoughts.

Bea: 20 seconds.

Remmy: [laughs] So when Osiris was passed over for this judge of Heaven and Hell [position] for his son, then Osiris was put out of a job and Osiris got to just have millennia — all these millennia — of living his life until he didn't have his followers anymore. He didn't have a name on the lips of worshipers, and he kind of devolved into a monster of the week, right? Because he wasn't judge of Heaven and Hell anymore. He was just someone who could pick a random off the street and eat his heart.

Bea: And ruin their day. [laughs]

Remmy: [laughs] Exactly. It's just so — I don't know. If we want to try to tie this into some bigger mythos, "Hammer of the Gods". These gods work off of a currency of worship, and when they don't have worship, they don't have strength.

Bea: Is that a Supernatural thing, or is that a Good Omens thing? Or not Good Omens, American Gods.

Remmy: I'm not sure. Um, long story short, "Hammer of the Gods" did put down some foundations. Like, "I have power because I was granted power by my worshipers."

Bea: Okay.

Remmy: It's — I don't know. Also, that's kind of just my default on modern gods.

Bea: Yeah. Yeah. So, Abacus.

Remmy: Abacus? Oh! Oh, yeah.

Bea: Anubis opens up his briefcase and he's like, "What? Are you expecting the Scales of Justice?"

Remmy: Yeah.

Bea: Nah, we have an abacus here. Lily is told to hold her hand over it, but it clacks to black and he's basically like, "I'm sorry."

Remmy: Yeah.

Bea: Sam is immediately like, "Nope, we can't accept this. Change it."

Remmy: Yeah, and this is when Anubis reveals that oh, I don't have authority over the weight of your soul. Heaven doesn't have authority over the weight of your soul. Hell only has authority over the way of your soul if you were to sell it to them. But you and only you define your worth.

Bea: Yeah, it's up to people's choices. It's very The Good Place, in that at the moment of your death your deeds are tallied, and then that's when it's determined. It's on you, basically, wherever you're going. So Lily — Lily Sunder has a lot of regrets now.

Remmy: [laughs] Oh my God. Okay, that.

Bea: Dah-dum cha. [laughs]

Remmy: [laughs] Oh my God. Okay.

Bea: It was bad, okay.

Remmy: No, it was great. That was glorious. That was beautiful. My only thing on this is [that] it is a subversion of the canon up to this point. This is something that Sam and Dean didn't know, the Winchesters didn't know about the nature of death, and where is your soul — what determines where your soul is going.

Bea: Yes.

Remmy: Because we've had all these throwaway lines or about, you know, talk s***, get hit, go to Hell, or —

Bea: [laughs]

Remmy: [sighs] Or the dick angels upstairs will bar you passage. To have Anubis here saying no, your soul is just the sum of your decisions and that is free will but — it's different. It's a subversion of the narrative as we've had it so far.

Bea: Yeah, and it gives us a chance to think about what's it going to mean when our characters pass away.

Remmy: No, f*** you.

Bea: We're not thinking about it, don't worry, but it gives you the chance.

Remmy: [laughs] No!

Bea: So, in Heaven.

Remmy: Yeah, in Heaven. Back in Heaven.

Bea: Yes. So Cas and Dumah go to find Kelly's heaven, and Cas is saying, "I know him. He'll be here."

Remmy: Yeah.

Bea: And sure enough, Jack and Kelly have barricaded themselves indoors. Kelly's, "What's wrong?" and Jack's like, "Get inside!" Basically, zombie invasion rules. He is already speaking about how he's going to protect her. He'll distract them so that she could run. She smiles, just so endeared, and she says that she's not going anywhere.

Remmy: [softly] Yeah.

Bea: But Jack hears Cas' voice outside. And so Jack opens the door and Cas just like, brims with this laugh, almost —

Remmy: Oh my God. This is the most —

Bea: Gives him this tight hug.

Remmy: This is the moment when we see the true reveal of Cas' own feelings on Jack's death. I mean, when Jack actually died, Cas was sheltering himself in this role of making sure that Sam and Dean were okay. Here, to have Jack open the door and Cas to be confronted with his dead son...

Bea: Yeah.

Remmy: And Cas didn't even know if Jack would even be in Heaven.

Bea: Exactly. There was that uncertainty and so in this moment — like, he gets to Heaven. Okay, Jack's here. Jack's in danger. Now, he gets to see Jack and Jack is okay.

Remmy: It's just monumental relief and grief. I mean, Cas seems very happy in this moment to be reunited with Jack, except that it is just an opening of the floodgates. This is everything that Cas had been holding in, I feel, up to this point.

Bea: Yeah, that to have this much joy upon reunion, you can think about the cavity in his chest where Jack's absence sits.

Remmy: Exactly, and this hug was so good and then it might have been trumped!

Bea: A one-two punch! It gets so much better!

Remmy: And then Cas turns to Kelly and Kelly draws him in. Again, there's just so much love. There's so much joy and love and warmth in both of their faces. Kelly draws Cas into a hug and [wails] Cas!

Bea: He's just apologizing. The first thing he does is apologize and say, "I failed you," and here we can see Kelly insisting, "No, you didn't. Jack is wonderful."

Remmy: This is a level of emotion that we very, very rarely see from Cas and I am here for it. For Cas to tuck himself into Kelly's shoulder and to just say, "I'm sorry. I'm so sorry." It's just like — oh.

Bea: Oh, we're here.

Remmy: [laughs] Oh, is this — is this?

Bea: That was a stiletto through my ribs. I'm bleeding. It's fine, though. I'm happy.

Remmy: Cry number three. Yeah, let's go.

Bea: Oh. Woof. Yeah, and also that little insight into the fact that Jack and Kelly might have bunkered themselves in here, but they've been talking and getting to know one another!

Remmy: I know!

Bea: I'm stumbling over my words with how much emotion [I'm feeling]. They get an actual chance to bond.

Remmy: Yes. They've been — again, there's so much joy in this moment for Jack to say to Cas, "Yeah, we're good. We're okay. We're safe. We've been getting to know one another. It's been good." And as for Kelly to turn to Cas and say, "He is a remarkable boy, and you did a good job."

Bea: Proud parents.

Remmy: I know! And for Cas, we talked about his guilt and grief for having failed Kelly, but this is the absolution for Cas.

Bea: Yeah. Yeah. He can take that weight off of his shoulders. He's unshackled from that guilt.

Remmy: I'm — yes. Cas enters into the quick one-two run down of, "Jack. This is why I'm here."

Bea: Yes. Cas says that they can bring Jack home, but they'll need to draw on Jack's soul in order to do it. And right away Kelly is not really keen on this. She's saying that it's too much of a risk, but Cas brings up the fact that it's not only Jack's life at stake here because Heaven is in trouble. Cas does a quick explanation that angels don't go to Heaven, they go to The Empty instead. If Jack is half-angel, half-human, then this Entity is coming after Jack, but it will leave if it has Jack — or if Jack is alive.

Remmy: Yeah, basically, "Jack, you are currently up for grabs."

Bea: Yeah. "You're the lynchpin in this moment."

Remmy: Right. Right. "But if we remove you from this equation, if you are no longer — if The Empty no longer has a claim — AKA you are alive — then we can put a stop to all of this." And Dumah, who we haven't seen so far in this scene, but Dumah says, "That's smart. Clever. Yeah."

Bea: And just the tone of voice, it's a little shiver. You're like, okay, what happened here? And sure enough, Dumah's approaching and she has been possessed by the Shadow.

Remmy: Yes. Yes.

Bea: So dun dun dun.

Remmy: Yeah.

Bea: To the bunker!

Remmy: [laughs]

Bea: Sam, Dean, and Lily are going through the cleanup, and Sam is still doing his best to follow through on getting Jack back, saying, "You know, you can still do the spell," and she's kind of like, "F*** that. I'm leaving."

Remmy: "That wasn't the deal. If you can't help me, I can't help you."

Bea: Yeah, that price tag? It's attached. You guys saw it. You know it's there.

Remmy: Yeah. Yeah. She says, "I have to go," and Dean stands up and he says...

Bea: Well, Sam's little, "He's our kid."

Remmy: Yeah. Oh my God, yeah.

Bea: And still Lily wants to leave.

Remmy: Right. Right, right, but Dean basically says, "You monster. You must be a monster. There is no humanity left in you, because if there was, there is no way in any universe that you would allow others to experience this loss that you yourself experienced. This pain."

Bea: Yeah.

Remmy: When there's something in your power that you could do to prevent it.

Bea: Yes. And it made me think back to when we were talking about "Optimism", that there's the two approaches that you can have to a situation, you know: I went through this so I want other people to have to suffer it, or, I went through this and I don't want anyone to have to go through this. Dean is the one that sits more on the protecting people from going through the terrible situations he's been in. Here, he is accusing Lily of being on the other side of that equation. You climbed that ladder and then you pulled it up from under you. Why can't you give us a hand?

Remmy: Exactly, exactly. I mean, the same thing on Dean. Like we said earlier in this episode, Dean is feeling this isn't fair.

Bea: Well, Dean started off being not at all on this page and they've worn him down, they've won him over, and now he's like, "Wait. All of that work, and now you're telling me, 'okay, just kidding!' We're not following through?"

Remmy: Yeah.

Bea: So yeah, the fact that Dean is someone who tries to protect people from going through these situations, and Lily's like, you know, you're on your own — two middle fingers way up — that just draws the line there for Dean. "You're inhuman."

Remmy: Yeah. Yeah, because no one with any shred of humanity could possibly think that this is okay.

Bea: No one with a shred of humanity could have the solution to bringing back a dead kid and be like, "Well, you didn't get my half of the deal. Bye, b****."

Remmy: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Bea: So we're on that real tense note, and we jump back to the other tense note of being in Heaven with The Empty. The Empty is stepping forward towards Kelly, Jack, and Cas. Kelly goes right in front of Jack and Cas prowls forward.

Remmy: Yes. Yes, this whole scene is so good. It's so good.

Bea: It's so good, and the actress who plays Dumah — the way that she plays Dumah possessed by The Entity? Hot. Damn.

Remmy: Just call it The Empty. I'm gonna call it The Empty. Just [laughs] FYI.

Bea: Okay. Yeah, and so The Empty is just going like, "The angels are mine," and when Jack or Cas or Kelly — if any of them try to talk, she immediately screams, "Stop interrupting! Start paying attention," and you're like, oh, f***.

Remmy: Yeah. I know. Shadow Dumah was killing it.

Bea: So good.

Remmy: And you know [laughs] on a bit of a humorous note, it brought me back to when we knew this episode was airing and we knew that some other actor or actress was going to be playing The Empty. Coming off of what Misha did with The Empty — with The Entity...

Bea: The f****** accent.

Remmy: Yeah. We were like, how the hell is anyone going to take that and adapt that into their own...

Bea: Something scary!

Remmy: The Empty, right? Like, how on earth — basically, Misha, you just screwed over anyone and everyone who ever tries to play The Empty beyond this point. So we were like, what is this even going to look like? What is The Empty going to be outside of Misha Collins? And for the Dumah actress — so sorry, we don't know your name. I beg forgiveness, because I love you so much —

Bea: She's so good.

Remmy: She knocked it out of the park. She brought a manic-ness to it that just translated so well onto the character of The Empty and she just — her body ticks. [laughs] I don't want to call it body language, but her mannerisms and her — just the crazy eyes, but it was good. It was good.

Bea: Erica Cerra.

Remmy: Erica Cerra, good job. Thumbs up.

Bea: Hell yeah, because it's like you're saying: to have Misha's almost comical accent and little [imitating] "Ah, really?" Just the way that it was going — how do you find terror? How do you make this into a threat against Heaven? And Erica here f****** sold it.

Remmy: Slam dunk.

Bea: [sings] Loved it.

Remmy: Yeah. Yeah, she's killing it, and just — you talk about chilling, you talk about terror.

Bea: Shouting followed by whispers. I'm like, oh no, decibel range! I don't like it.

Remmy: And she's looking at Jack and Kelly and she's saying, "Jack you're coming with me now," and she darts a look to — I'm whispering into the mic now because it's like we're ramping up the tension. She darts to look to Cas and she says, "Oh. They look so scared," but she's taking joy in it.

Bea: Yeah, "Does it hurt you?"

Remmy: And she says, "Does it hurt you?" and Cas just has this slap to the f****** face moment of realization, that she is taking so much joy in the fact that this — to take Jack away, to terrify these people that she cares about — it is hurting...

Bea: It's chilling.

Remmy: It's chilling, and it's a threat over Cas. Maybe even — The Entity will care more about Cas than it does about taking Jack. Taking Jack away is just something that is hurting Cas, and there's these long-standing resentments here between Cas and The Entity.

Bea: Well —

Remmy: I know, it's like it's a coin of two heads, a little bit.

Bea: Two sides of the same coin.

Remmy: Yeah.

Bea: Okay. So The Entity was asleep and then woke up because of Cas' annoyance, and I guess has gotten increasingly irate since waking up. Just the way that it is phrasing The Empty, saying, "Where I'm taking you is worse than Hell. At least Hell is something," and like — I feel like there is this overarching relishing in causing this chaos, this pain. I think that the fact that it is involving Cas and his loved ones is just icing on the cake.

Remmy: Yeah. Yeah. I just didn't know [whether] to read it as — because like I said, there was a moment of realization on Cas' face, so [that] invited me to think: what is The Entity really here for? Is it here for Jack, or is it here for Cas? But like you said, The Entity was awoken by Cas and it does not seem like it has gotten back to sleep, and that growing irate-ness is something that I absolutely would see to be...

Bea: A rivalry or a grudge.

Remmy: Well, that — I'm just — all I can think is the mania in The Entity's mannerisms, and the maliciousness...

Bea: See, the mania I attribute to the fact that this is something that has been on its own since the dawning of time, and has had quiet charges and it's had such a long stretch of quiet that it was able to fall asleep. So this is something that has been on its own. I'm like, you get a little stir-crazy. You get a little cabin crazy.

Remmy: But now there's a maliciousness in it that we didn't even really see and our first introduction to The Empty, when it was trying to reason with Cas: "Go back to sleep." We saw that mania, but we didn't see that maliciousness.

Bea: Yeah. I just feel like the absence of maliciousness on that first approach was because The Empty figured it had the upper hand, and then when Cas wouldn't kowtow then that became the kernel that would seed this resentment.

Remmy: Talk about having the upper hand. Now that Cas is alive, now that The Entity let Cas go, The Entity has no domain over Castiel as he is now. The Entity can't do jacks*** to Castiel. That — talk about a seed of resentment.

Bea: Is that true though? Because Zuriel, lying on the ground there — was Zuriel dead? Because we seem to get the feeling from Dumah that he was.

Remmy: Yeah, but The Entity obviously has no interest in killing Cas.

Bea: The joy is not in killing Cas. The joy is in making Cas suffer. So we have Cas charg[ing] at Dumah as The Empty, and he is no match for her.

Bea: No. F****** does Tekken 3 kicks through the air, gets thrown aside. And even Kelly comes up while The Empty is kicking Cas. The empty throws Kelly as well. It's at this moment that Cas hears Dean's prayer basically saying that they have Jack's body prepped. Lily, she kisses her daughter's little photo in the little tableau, and Cas knows that now is the time if they're going to save Jack.

Remmy: Yeah Dean prays to say, "We're ready when you are. I hope you're ready. Amen." [laughs] I liked his little amen at the end.

Bea: [laughs] Yeah. And so Jack now — okay, you tossed Cas. You tossed Kelly. Jack steps in to fight The Empty, but The Empty grabs a hand around Jack's neck and starts choking him. Cas goes on a different tactic and decides to strike a deal. He'll go in Jack's stead.

Remmy: "Take me," he says.

Bea: "I'm the one who woke you up. Take me in his stead."

Remmy: Yeah. "I'm the one you really want." And The Empty is, again, I just — chills down my spine over this actress who...

Bea: Yeah, Erica's delivery here.

Remmy: [sighs] Oh my God, okay. [laughs] I don't even know. Obviously, I'm having a bit of a feel right here because we are making a deal. We are sacrificing ourselves for the ones that we love. He says, "Take me," and The Entity says, "But you're already mine. I don't need anything from you. You already belong to me." And Cas says, "Not now. Not eons until — there could be eons until I die. I'm immortal, b****." [laughs]

Bea: Yeah, "But I can go now willingly if you'll accept this." And yeah, The Empty just goes: "Deal."

Remmy: Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah, and instantly — see [sighs] I won't get into what was Cas' master plan here. He expected to be taken by The Entity right here, right now, and then what was Jack going to do?

Bea: Stay in Heaven with his mom?

Remmy: Oh. Oh no. Oh no. Oh no. Oh no. [laughs] You hurt me.

Bea: He was genuinely like, "I'll go now if you keep my kid alive. Give up your dominion of Jack. He already has a heaven here. He has a place. Let him stay with his mom."

Remmy: Oh my God. Yeah. Heaven versus The Empty. Like Jack — Cas couldn't have — if The Empty had taken Cas at the moment, Cas couldn't have brought Jack back to life.

Bea: He would protect Jack from the fate of The Empty, which The Empty just said is worse than Hell.

Remmy: Exactly. Exactly. Oh my God.

Bea: And Cas is like, "I call dibs on that seat."

Remmy: Oh my God.

Bea: "You can't let Jack sit in it, I'm gonna sit in it."

Remmy: Oh my God. And The Empty says, "Oh no, no, no, no."

Bea: "Good! But I'm tacking on some clauses."

Remmy: "Hmm. No, I won't take you now. I want you to go back to your life. I want you to forget about me. I want you to forget about this. It is only when you are at your happiest, when you let the sun shine —"

Bea: "When you give yourself permission to be happy." Because I feel like there's this obsession with when Cas is happy. No, it was when you give yourself permission to be happy.

Remmy: Oh my God. You're so...

Bea: There's a difference there.

Remmy: It is, it is. That is an important distinction. It's not his happy moments. She says, "I want you to forget about me. I want you to forget about this. It's when you give yourself permission to be happy," because it will always be a shadow in his mind that The Empty deal is there.

Bea: Yeah, this deal is here.

Remmy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, "And it's only when you are truly at your most content that I will snatch it away from you."

Bea: Well, when you think you're free. When you are living your life as if you are free, that's when I want to come.

Remmy: Stop. Stop. You're making me so nervous for season 15. Oh my god.

Bea: When is he going to have a moment when he forgets about the deal? Anyway.

Remmy: [hushing] Oh my God.

Bea: Cas accepts. Cas says okay. Yeah. And then Dumah collapses. The Empty leaves, goes straight up through that ceiling vent.

Remmy: Oh my God.

Bea: And Dumah's disoriented. Jack is just like, [angrily] "Why?" Not in that tone of voice. That's more me bleeding in, but...

Remmy: [laughs] Jack says, "Why would you do that? How could you do that?" And Cas says, "I love you, and this is what—"

Bea: No! No.

Remmy: I'm sorry! I'm sorry, what did he say?

Bea: It's so critical, because he starts first and he says, "I made a promise."

Remmy: Oh my God.

Bea: And then when he looks at Kelly, then he amends to say, "Because I love you."

Remmy: Oh my God!

Bea: He starts with the shield of duty, and then he lets that shield drop and he lets it be the actual emotive place where he's at.

Remmy: Oof. Oof. Oof!

Bea: I'm sorry that I came in here so aggressively, trying to stop [you], but it was a really critical thing as far as my notes were concerned. [laughs]

Remmy: Well, hell, I do it all the time. We're good. Oh my God. Yeah. No, you're totally right. He initially says, "Because I made a promise," and this is his closing moment on Kelly. He is saying, "I will protect your son."

Bea: Well, "I'm not even motivated by the vow anymore. I have my own intrinsic motivation and it is because I love you."

Remmy: "Because I love you." Exactly. Exactly. And it's okay. He tries so hard. He tells Jack it's okay.

Bea: [emotively] He's winning the dad Olympics and he doesn't even know.

Remmy: [laughs] Yeah.

Bea: I'm okay. Yeah.

Remmy: Are you okay?

Bea: [softly] I'm fine. Cas tells Jack not to tell Sam and Dean. I mean, he doesn't want them to worry. And so Jack — again, we're talking about promises here. Jack lays down that "I promise."

Remmy: Yeah. Yeah. He says Sam and Dean don't need to know. "I don't want them to worry." It's just the way that he says it. Again, it's the same way that he is trying to reassure Jack in this moment, to say this. His face is so serene. He's just so happy.

Bea: He even says, "I'm at peace."

Remmy: I know!

Bea: "I would give anything in a heartbeat," and it goes back — parents will do anything to protect their kids. So Jack is going to be fine after this. Cas has zero hesitation protecting him from the fate of The Empty.

Remmy: And Jack promises not to reveal Cas' secret, in this moment.

Bea: Yeah.

Remmy: Oh my god.

Bea: [laughs] And Cas: "Let's go!"

Remmy: Oh my God, except Kelly and Jack, coming for my life!

Bea: [sadly] Yeah.

Remmy: Yeah, they say goodbye.

Bea: Jack, to Kelly, is just saying, "We didn't get enough time." I'm like, isn't that the story of you two right there?

Remmy: Augh. But Kelly says, "No." She again takes Jack's face in her hands and she says, "No, my baby. My son. You are perfect, and you are going to be so good, and you are going to live your life and I'll be here. I'm here when it's actually your time."

Bea: Yeah, "Go. Have a great life. I'll be waiting. I love you so much." Like, awww, Jack.

Remmy: Oh my God.

Bea: After that, Jack turns to Cas and: "You ready?" Cas touches Jack's face and Kelly's wiping tears away, and we are back to the bunker. Boom. Jack bolting upright on that slab where he's been prepared, and he's coughing.

Remmy: Yeah. Yeah. So we get the feel here that Cas has returned Jack's body to his soul, but his body is in just as bad of shape as it was when he died. This is what Cas meant when he said only for a few seconds, because he would basically just be returning a human soul to a dead body.

Bea: Ooh, yeah.

Remmy: Or a body that died for a reason.

Bea: Yes. A body incapable of holding the life.

Remmy: Right. Exactly. Exactly. But a couple seconds is all Lily needed. Sam hands Jack an incantation and says, "Read this," and Jack seals the deal on this soul magic.

Bea: Yeah, and Lily is looking strained as this is going on. She goes and sits aside. When Jack finishes this incantation his eyes glow, and he goes, "Was that my soul?" [laughs]

Remmy: [laughs] Well, I'm — you know what that actually made me think of? It was like — so we saw these glowing eyes, but it wasn't his grace, was it?

Bea: Nope, it wasn't typical element that we see.

Remmy: Right, right. It wasn't the yellow-eyed sunglow of Jack's Nephilim grace. It was this internal glow, and for Jack to come off of that power surge and say, "Was that my soul?" and Jack knows was his what his grace feels like. He knows what his magic is, what his powers are, and this was decidedly different. Even Jack recognized it as something decidedly different.

Bea: Yeah, so we closed the door on one peril and we're opening the door on another.

Remmy: Mhmm.

Bea: But in the moment, he feels good!

Remmy: Yeah.

Bea: Dean gives him this huge hug, and Sam's right up close to him too. They're thanking Lily for her efforts, but she has passed already.

Remmy: Yeah, Lily went to rest in an armchair and she passed.

Bea: And then we are seeing this room full of filing cabinets and literally walking through it. She's approaching the desk where Anubis sits. She doesn't know why she's here but he gets out the abacus again, and this time when she holds her hand over it, she's got an A+ rating.

Remmy: Uh-huh. Well, you know, it made me think, for Lily to say, "Why am I here?" On the one hand, you can take it as, "I already know where I'm going. Why am I here?" But on the other hand, Anubis said himself, "I'm just the paperwork guy. I am the behind-the-curtains wizard." For Lily to be here, it's because Anubis invited her to be here and it was something that he wanted to see through.

Bea: Yeah, and it gives a little insight into his character, because he stayed earlier even though it was against protocol.

Remmy: Yeah.

Bea: And here he is doing the measurement again. He even says, "Oh, curious." The result isn't what he was expecting. So he —

Remmy: I wouldn't say it wasn't what he was expecting. I would say that it was exactly what he was expecting. He knew that her fate would have changed, and he invited her to witness it herself.

Bea: Yeah.

Remmy: And he chose to be the one to usher her into Heaven.

Bea: Yeah, I do agree on that. I think where I was at with "he wasn't expecting it" was that normally it's not one deed that can save a life from going to Heaven or Hell. So to be in this place — he doesn't want it to just pass. He wants to be a bit privy to it as well.

Remmy: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly, exactly. I get that. I like him a lot. I would love to see him later.

Bea: Yes. Yes, and now we have Cas leaving Kelly's heaven, and Naomi is there. She thanks him, and he's wary. He's looking for enemies.

Remmy: [laughs]

Bea: But he saved them and there's a good side effect for it. Now Heaven's okay.

Remmy: Yeah, Naomi says, "You saved us and I might even be tempted to offer you a reward." Cas is so wary. He's like, "I don't..."

Bea: Yeah. He looks like he's cornered even though he's in a hallway.

Remmy: It is Naomi.

Bea: Yeah, and so she rewards him with an impression of where Michael is. Then we get into our final scene.

Remmy: Jack and his burger! My three dads.

Bea: Yep! We have the Heaven scene, only this time it is in the bunker. Jack is digging into burgers, and they all have beers around, and he asks, "Is something wrong?" but they're just glad to have him back. Dean's pleased that they now know where Michael's location is, "However that happened," and they settle on this beat of optimism, where they're going to find Kaia and they're going to make Michael pay, and they clang their beers in celebration.

Remmy: Yeah, such optimism in this scene. Such hopefulness in this scene.

Bea: Yeah. It's not often that they have a plan for resurrection that like, okay. We had a lot of hiccups along the way, but it still worked. This shot in the dark that we didn't even think of at the bottom of the bottle last night; here we are, following through, we got our kid back.

Remmy: Yeah. Yeah.

Bea: All right. So what are your closing thoughts?

Remmy: [pensive] Final thoughts.

Bea: Final thoughts.

Remmy: Final thoughts! What's my final takeaway? Um.

Bea: Do you want me to go?

Remmy: Yeah, I do, actually. [laughs]

Bea: [laughs] I was like, I can feel you floundering. [laughs] For me, it was the repercussions, the what's next that's coming. We had the opportunity for the Winchesters to embrace death, but they just sat there saying nope, doesn't feel right, bad fit. [They] go to these lengths to bring Jack back. And so now we have the, you know, what are going to be the consequences of Jack having his life intertwined with his soul? And then, what are the consequences going to be for Castiel making that deal to save Jack? To me, this episode left you with those Damocles swords above you, and although we have this great beat at the end where they're happy and they have this forward goal of Michael figured out, there is still these looming threat where you're like — you're like Castiel and what The Empty expects of him, y'know? There's this shadow sitting there, and even if you are experiencing joy, it's the "at what cost" question that keeps coming up.

Remmy: Yeah, this death, okay. This Jack death. I talked about how it was different than other Supernatural deaths that we've seen before, even permanent deaths. There was something about this death that really did seem settled. It seemed okay. I don't know.

Bea: Well, is it just — I mean, not to be bland about it, but was it a mundane enough death that you could see it happening in everyday life? When it's in the Winchesters lives, it's like when we saw them in the hospital last week. They seem so out of place while they're there. They don't know the song and dance that they have to [do], and then when they get enough of it, they bail. [laughs]

Remmy: It's like — it's one part that, where this is just, you know, s*** happens, but it's one part also just the way that they were reacting to this death. They were laughing at the table when they were eating nougat and drinking whiskey and reminiscing, and they were — when asked the question, "What's the next steps?" they responded with a wake and a funeral.

Bea: Yeah.

Remmy: They were ready to move on, and we see Jack — like I said, Empty aside — we see Jack in Heaven, happy and even able to be with his mother and happy. I don't know. It just felt too... There's a certain ominous [feeling]. Like you said, these consequences. What will be the consequences? I get the feeling that was not the right deal to make. We yanked him away from something that should have happened.

Bea: Yeah, the characters might not have been sitting comfortable with what happened, but as for actual outcomes — Jack in Heaven, being fine, Empty aside — and them just having to live the life now of having lost this person that they saw as a dependent, saw as family, as a kid to them.

Remmy: They have again made a disproportionate sacrifice.

Bea: Yeah, and just because they think okay, it came at the 11th hour and all it's going to cost is just a little sip of Jack's battery once a day. [cringes]

Remmy: Yeah [cringes] Yeah, we're waiting for that sword to fall.

Bea: Yes.

Remmy: Uh-huh. We, the viewer, does not believe for a second that this is not going to come back and bite us in the a**, as Dean said.

Bea: Yeah. And unlike Cas, we can experience joy but there is that sliver of shadow that is looming over it, wondering what's next.

Remmy: [strained] Cas' Empty deal. Oh my God. Okay. What is my takeaway? Holy s***. My final takeaway is just the feelings that surrounded, that precedented — no, proceeded, not precedented. The feelings that preceded this deal, leading into it. We were okay, we were okay until we were not okay. Or more like we were okay until we had this bone dangled in front of us. It's just — I'm waiting for the moment when we can be okay with it, you know? With death or with loss, or this is how it is. It's just so — I don't know. On the one hand, it's weird to me because the Winchesters know what comes following death.

Bea: But they've spent their whole lives fighting to protect people from fates like this. It's a difficult habit to try and break.

Remmy: And I think that my final takeaway is exactly that. It's that we were, at first, lead down this hallway of emotional growth that said, "Hey, we can be okay," and then at the 11th hour [we were] yanked into the f****** bathroom and given a f****** swirly in the toilets, because we were yanked on that chain. And now we have in the back of our mind that that sword is going to fall.

Bea: Yep.

Remmy: Yep. And that was [laughs] season 14, episode 8: "Byzantium". Yeah.

Bea: Yeah, woof.

Remmy: And next week, we will be covering season 14, episode 9: "The Spear". It's the mid-season finale already.

Bea: Oh my God. Time flies.

Remmy: [laughs] But we're having fun. It flies because we're having fun and crying.

Bea: Absolutely. Absolutely. Through the tears, we can't see the clock. So. [laughs]

Remmy: Exactly. As always, join us on Twitter, Tumblr, Podbean.

Bea: Wherever you get your podcasts. Like, Subscribe.

Remmy: Yeah. Like, Subscribe, Comment. We see everyone; we love everyone.

Bea: So yeah. Thank you guys for joining, and we'll see you next week.

Remmy: And we'll see you next week. Bye! Bye, guys.

Bea: Bye!

[post-outro stinger]

Remmy: I should have looked up the meaning of that word before we went in, because [laughs] it's just a word. Anyways! It was an episode written by —

Bea: [into phone] Siri, what's the meaning of Byzantium?

[Siri, in a male Australian accent]: Byzantium means: An ancient Greek city —

Remmy: [laughs]

[Siri, in a male Australian accent]: — founded in the 7th Century BC, at the southern end of the Bosporus, site of the modern city of Istanbul. It was rebuilt by Constantine the Great in AD 324 - 30 as Constantinople.

Remmy: Istanbul, not Constantinople?

Bea: Correct. It's Byzantium, not Constantinople. [laughs]

Remmy: [laughs]